Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Sleepy Qs podcast. This is Linda Szmulewitz and Jessica Sawicki is here with us today as well. And today we have a special guest we’re going to be interviewing Kim West, the Sleep Lady. We’re super excited to have her as our first guest. So welcome, Kim, why don’t you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, starting with your years of experience and how you started sleep coaching in general.
Kim: Great. Well, thanks for having me on. So exciting to be here with you and be part of the beginning of your podcast. So let’s see, the long and short of my story of how I became The Sleep Lady. So I am a mother of two. My two daughters are 23 and 26 and I am also a licensed clinical social worker and I have been for 27 years. I can’t even believe that I can say that.
And I was pregnant with my first daughter and my older brother who has two kids, six months younger than my two kids came to visit with their baby. And they were a wreck. They were like, “Oh my God, this kid never sleeps. We’re never having any more children.” My sister-in-law was like, “I might have to quit my job.” “I can’t function.” I was like, What this is like a problem. This could be a thing. And I was really nervous cause I like to sleep. And so fast forward, I had my baby. Oh, by the way back then, of course there was, I know this makes me sound like a dinosaur, but there wasn’t the internet the way it is now and there weren’t, you know, digital books. So you went to the library and the only book in the library was Dr. Ferber. He’s the first person to write a book. And so my brother told me they had gotten it out like 10 times from the library. And and I knew about it and had read about it and fast forward I have my baby.
I get some. Pretty well-intended but bad advice lactation and sleep. And I was told to wake my baby every hour and a half throughout the night and day. And I was literally hallucinating that I kept thinking she was in my bed and that my husband was going to roll over on her .
And I was trying to wake her up and they told me strip her down and put a wet washcloth on her and she would of course then latch back on and then fall asleep. And I remember one night I was crying. I was up like an hour and a half trying to get her stay awake and to take a feedi g because the nurse had blamed me for her being jaundice cause she was sleeping too much and I wasn’t feeding her enough. And I was lying there with the sleeping baby, stripped down into her diaper and a sleeping cat next to her purring. And I’m just crying. And my husband comes in and it’s like, “where have you been? What’s wrong?” And I’m like, Oh my God. And I said, look, “I have come up with a plan.” And he said, “okay.” So I said, ” I’m only gonna feed her when she wakes up.” I know that doesn’t sound like rocket science, but at four o’clock in the morning, I was thinking, Oh, this is a really solid plan. And if I go to the doctor and she’s losing weight, I’m going to come up with another plan.
And he was like, “Good. I like this plan. Give me the baby, put her in the crib.” And what ended up happening, not that I then was sleep training a newborn, but what ended up happening is as I started to go kind of inward, right? Like, so wait a minute. I know a decent amount about child development and attachment and I started reading more and I thought there’s, isn’t there something different?
You know that I can do. Can I still hold and carry and breastfeed my baby and create a secure attachment and have a framework to the day. And could she eventually learn the skills of putting herself to sleep? And could I do it without letting her cry it out alone? And so when she got old enough, I experimented, and luckily my daughters turned out lovely and both of them have. And I just experimented with doing this kind of more gradual, gentle approach.
And then I helped of course, my brother and then get my younger brother and my friends and then the friends of friends and I was doing it kind of on the side from my social work job. And finally, when I was pregnant with my second daughter, my sister-in-law’s like, Kim, you got to do this part of your practice.
And I was like, let me see. Maybe I was lucky and let me have the second baby. And unfortunately I had her early and she had a horrible silent reflux and eczema, and she was just a super alert baby. And I would say even like that as a young adult. And and then after I got her healthy, not in pain, eating, growing old enough. And I got her sleeping, I thought, okay, I’m onto something. And so. After I was at the point now where I didn’t even know who the people were that referred the person to me, who would call me. I said, I can get an add it to my practice. And that’s what I did. And it just really exploded because there was nobody out there, a) offering anything other than cry it out, or really it was Ferber and then came Weissbluth and b) there was no one doing the kind of handholding and coaching that I was doing. Really customizing a plan for a family and then following them through the entire process.
Linda: I feel like I remember you telling us one that you had a waiting list of hundreds at one point in time. That’s insane.
Kim: It was insane. And nothing was automated. Online too. So I was hiring people to help call them back and email them. And I was doing group calls to be able to help. And I wrote a guidebook, I think I sold like 6,000 copies of the guidebook, but literally had to go print them at Kinkos and put them in, sending them to them. You know, I had like a little factory put my girls to work with me. Yeah, there wasn’t anybody doing it.
Jessica: So you started the coaching, the sleep coaching. How long ago?
Kim: 11 years ago. The Gentle Sleep Coaching program.
Jessica: no, the actual sleep coaching itself, like as a sleep coach, you started.
Kim: Well, my oldest daughter’s 26.
Jessica: Okay. And then 11 years ago was when you started the actual Gentle Sleep Coaching program. Correct. And what made you decide to offer the training program?
Kim: So 15 years ago, almost 16 years ago, now I wrote my first book. And actually before I wrote my book, just doing media, expanded my market outside of my state and outside of the United States. So that’s how then I got super inundated and also so many other people in other countries ended up learning about what I was doing and learning that Oh! Things could be better. There’s a way that somebody could help me. And then I would get emails from nurses and therapists and moms and dads say ” could you train me? To do what you do?” And I would always politely, they say, no, not because I wanted to keep everything to myself. I couldn’t literally help everyone by myself. I just couldn’t wrap my brain around how to do it. There was no other training program to copy. It wasn’t like there was a college course available and I kind of created this whole thing myself.
And then finally I started to see two things happen. 1. As the internet grew , more sort of, as I call it smoke and mirrors happened. So, you know, more people saying they were experts without having any education and training. And, and then I think giving out well-intended advice, but missing really important things like sleep apnea , reflux, sensory processing disorder, other dynamics happening in family, generalized anxiety disorder. People claiming to even tell some families the diagnosis of a child when they never seen the child, there don’t even have the licensing to diagnose. And those parents would come to me or reach out to me and say, “this is what somebody told me on the internet and this is what’s happening. It’s not getting better” and so on, so forth. And so I think I had just enough examples like that, whereas like, Okay. I’m going to do this. And I had hired someone to help me cause I had never launched anything like this before. And I remember telling him like, look, don’t be upset with me and only two people are interested. Cause it could be just this. Few people and Oh my goodness. You know, my first class was less 50 people and now, you know, I teach it three times a year, all over the world. It’s become a global industry and other programs have started, as a result.
Linda: So two questions. One, how many GSC’s are there? I’ve never counted.
Kim: I’m gonna say probably 300 off the top of my head. Yeah. And I think we are already now because my program is also translated into Spanish. It is translated in Russian. And will eventually be translated into Turkish and you know, perhaps other languages moving forward so soon, I think we’re going to approach, I think I actually, we already are there that there are more coaches outside of the United States, Gentle Sleep Coaches outside of the United States than in the United States.
Linda: Wow. So what do you feel like is different about your training program than some of the others out there?
So, of course I’m a little biased, right? Since mine is the first and there’s so many now, even more programs popping up every day. And I really encourage everyone to do their due diligence. And I think it’s really hard right now to figure out what’s a good program. So I look at some of the things that a taskforce that was formed 5 or 6 years ago, brought up from the sleep medicine field as to things they think should be in a program that could eventually be approved for accreditation and regulation.
And so one is a faculty panel which I do have 6 outside experts, 2 physicians and psychologists, 2 lactation consultants, a psychologist who’s an expert in postpartum mood, anxiety, and an attorney. I also had that specialty 0 to 5 month program that I haven’t found any other program has. So they talk about that. They also talk about, the training leader having at least 10 years experience. I have 27. I’m also the only training leader that I know of so far that has a master’s degree in a related field and also a published book. And then the other thing they were talking about is your program should offer who require 3 pro bono cases. Whether you work for the family for free, they send it in the evaluation form. And then you take an exam eventually when the field becomes regulated, I’m sure they will require the study exams be standardized. And then that you have ongoing access to mentorship and continuing education. As far as I know, I’m the only program that requires the entire first year of mentorship. I have required that from the very beginning. This is a licensing certification, the Gentle Sleep Coach mark is a trademark. It is filed as a certification mark. So I had to submit to the government a certification standards so that every Gentle Sleep Coach who wants to say they are certified, has to complete requirements every year.
And the CEU, is the continuing education, is what the task force calls quality control. Is there some way to know that your coaches are being supervised and getting continuing education. I think it makes the GSC program stand out.
Jessica: If someone can read your book, why do you think they should go ahead and hire a sleep coach as well that they have access to your book?
Kim: Yeah, that’s a really popular question. so if I look at my own practice, I worked with families for 10 years before I wrote my book. I guess I’m a bit of a perfectionist, one to make sure I really knew what I was talking about. And when I wrote my book, I was still just as, or if not busier.
Of course, you know, my book has sold over 150,000 copies in paperback. And I didn’t hear from all those families. So I’m assuming that there are tons of families that took it and applied it and hopefully continue to sleep well. But there are also the other families who say, you know, my situation’s unique. I couldn’t find my example in your book. I’m too tired to read your book. It’s a popular one or, you know, Kim, I tried it and it just, it didn’t work. I don’t know what I did wrong. Or I need support. Like, I just need someone to help me be accountable, help me figure out, when to go left instead of right. I just want someone to talk about it because you know, parenting can be very isolating and sleep coaching is hard and is also hard to do by yourself, you know? So I think there’s always room for coach because lots of times, as you both know, you have to tweak things and to a particular family and to a particular temperament of a child or temperament of a parent.
Linda: Yeah, for sure do you have any upcoming projects or books or any other things that, that people might want to know about?
Kim: I always have more projects up my sleeve.
Linda: I know you do.
Kim: I do have my video course that’s available. I just edited my book for the third time that came out in March, 2020. And I pulled out the newborn section in there. And I’ll come out with another book on helping 0 to 5 months old babies.
And probably have a course for that. And then I’m more than likely going to venture into potty training and diaper free training and offer resources to parents and certifications to people who wanted to do that. Because like the sleep field, I got a little upset by inaccurate information going out there on that too. And also product line. And I’m really excited and working with an artist on a picture book about going to sleep.
Linda: Oh, that would be great. I would love to have that to share with people.
Kim: Yes. I know it’s really needed. It’s really needed out there. And I had this idea for years and years and I just, I had to find the right children’s book, writer and illustrator. For me to say I’m ready. Yeah.
Jessica: That’s great. So switching a little bit of gears about coaching parents and your experience what would you say is different working with parents now as opposed to back 20, 25 years ago, when you first started?
Kim: Yeah. You know, it’s so funny because some things are just the same. And some things are different. I think, sadly, the thing that is the same is that the judgment , amongst parents of, when you sleep coach, if you sleep coach, do you breastfeed? Do you not breastfeed? Do you co-sleep, do you not co-sleep you know, Oh my goodness. You know, what theory are you practicing? Then when I felt unsupported or judged, which I absolutely experienced just like every other parent I could just. Not go to that parents group. And I could just avoid them altogether and not talk about it, but it’s harder now with social media and the pressure is just immense.
And I think that that makes it much harder. And it was already overwhelming. So maybe for me, I could talk to other parents and get overwhelmed or go to the library. And I mean, I remember closing the book on my last parenting book and saying, I’m going to stop reading because I’m becoming immobilize d.
And so now take that and you know, multiply that by, I don’t even know what, you know, um, in the number of experts and websites and everything, the thing out there, I think it’s really hard. And so even when I was doing coaching was families and still they, to some families, we’re working together to just not Google anymore.
Or not whatever, follow this person on Instagram or that can we just for out,you obviously hired me because you trust me that I can help you, let me help you. You know, let’s just it all out because I rather, you go down into your intuition so we can really get to know your child and get to know yourself and what you want so that we can move forward together.
There’s so there’s so much over-complicating of sleep training and I don’t even like calling it sleep training, but you know, the Interet says I have to, because that’s what the key word is.
There’s a reason why I call it coaching and why you guys are called gentle sleep coaches. But you know, like as an example, the number of parents who write to me and say, you know, there’s 30 methods of sleep training out there, or 11 methods or the other programs that say they’re training and like, I’m overwhelmed. How do I choose? So I am going to make a video on this in social media there there’s just three method, right? Just three. Right? So extinction. Complete cried out, graduated extinction, which is 98% the books and 98% of the methods. It’s the really the main method that’s had some research done on it, even though it’s complicated.
And then parental fading, I’m calling it parental, fading adding them word because it gets confused with bedtime fading. I mean, of it is graduated extinction. And then how you can tweak graduated extinction. Right. Do you, how you go in, do you extend it or X days or within one night, do you pick up, do you not pick up, do you touch, do you talk? Right?
And so I think that’s super overwhelming for families. So I always tell them like, figure out what is the right match, not only for your baby’s temperament, but your own temperament and what you can follow through with consistently. And if you’re not sure, start gentle and you can always move faster. Cause I find what a parent does that they follow through more consistently. So even though I know that was a long answer to a short question, but it’s really true how the overwhelming amount of information.
Jessica: It is true. I often get parents will be like, well, my friend sent me this, why aren’t we doing this? Or I saw this last night, why aren’t we doing that? And it’s like, you know, that worked for your friend. This might not work for you. And also what you said about the different methods. I also always say, I’m not going to come up with a new method. That’s not why you’re hiring me. I’m not going to like. You know, my new Jessica Sawicki method, no, you know, there’s these three standard methods. What I’m here to do is look at that, see what works for your child and what works for your family. What are the different situations that are going on?
Linda: And the whole picture, but you mentioned two really important points that come up, at least with me and my clients all the time. The other thing I was just thinking, as I remember, just in terms of the information that’s coming at you, I remember reading Happy Baby Healthy Sleep Habits. So Weissbluth’s book when my daughter was eight weeks. So this was like 15 years ago. And even then the internet was not what it is now.
I don’t remember what I read. All I know is the book was poorly written and I felt like a bad parents already. And I remember shutting it and going. That’s it. I broke her it’s over, you know, she was eight weeks old, but there was nothing that couldn’t be changed. And there was nothing that had even developed really at that point. And I just felt like I was doing it all wrong. And then the book was judging me for that already. And that was just a book. I mean, that’s not all of the information that’s coming at parents constantly.
Kim: And there’s many books that parents read they say that they feel judged by not just that one. Yeah. And, you know, another important thing, which one of my first 50 coaches, experienced because she had worked with, Dr. Weissbluth because she had lived in Chicago and they did an extinction and it, it didn’t work. He didn’t improve at all. And she ended up saying to him, well, Well, wait a minute, you know, if this is supposed to work because I’m not going in, I’m not doing anything to reinforce the wakening. So why is this not working? And he said, “I don’t know. Sometimes it just doesn’t work.” And didn’t offer any other solution. By the way, then she ended up hiring me and I said, well, we have nothing else to lose by going more gradual and gentle and seeing and seeing what happens. And so I just feel like families who just know that there’s no one thing that’s going to work for every baby.
Jessica: Very true.
Kim: And now they’re not widgets. They’re little babies.
Linda: They’re not robots. Well, and actually now I have the experience where Mark isn’t practicing anymore, but Dan has his own practice, Weissbluth Pediatrics and I work with so many families that will say that they hired him, where they had a sleep consult with a doctor and I’ll say, well, who was it? And they’ll tell me. And nothing that he said was useful. And he was very judgmental and I’ve had parents who have called the office and said it’s not working. And the front desk staff will say, well, you’re doing it wrong then. I mean, there’s stories that I hear are pretty outrageous coming from that practice.
Kim: Yeah. And you know what I mean? Like, is that helpful? The parents, I mean, you know, it’s the same for, there’s a pediatric practice in New York City that says, you know, if you don’t have the guts to let them cry it out, it’s six weeks or
Linda: It’s eight.
Kim: Yeah. Then I don’t want to hear you complaining at three months. But I will say too, there’s, there’s also tons of families who want to do co-sleeping safely. I hope. That also feel judged. I used to get a lot of referrals from Dr. Sears practice because he did say, look, this might not work for anybody. And I think that’s important. Can we all say that this one thing may not work for everyone?
Linda: Right. For sure. So what would be your, if you could think of one, one tip for new parents who are struggling with their children’s sleep, what would you say to them?
Kim: I know. It’s so hard. Only one tip.
Linda: You can come up with three.
Kim: I think the first one is. To be kind to yourself and not judgmental to yourself and know that okay. We’re all doing the best we can. And if you need to shut out all that outside criticism, I support you in doing it. And that really our job in the beginning is just to get to know who we were given.
Right. And if you really feel like no, I’m kind of a numbers schedule rule, kind of parent, then go find out what’s realistic. And shut out all these miracle babies we hear about. As one of my coaches says, they must have really great publicists, because they they’re not the 90% and, instead figure out what’s the most realistic thing. And then when should I look for that? What are the signs of that and how can I support myself and my baby and tell them? And I really believe, and it’s not, you know, just happy baby. It has to be, the whole family has to be working well. I always put family wellness first. So I don’t know if that’s one tip or a multitude of little ones.
Linda: That’s great. Whenever parents will say, well, my friend’s baby was sleeping at two months 12 hours overnight. And I say, sometimes you just need new friends,
Kim: Okay.
Linda: You know? I mean, it’s all about who talk to.
Kim: You know what, here’s the thing. There are tons of families that aren’t sleeping well that aren’t telling anyone.
Jessica: I always say that. I bet we say how come that kid sleeps great in the restaurant. I said, you don’t know what happened last night. And that’s why he’s sleeping in the restaurant. You know, you never know what happened. So you hear or you see, but just like social media and everything looks great, but you don’t know what’s going on.
Kim: I remember I had one client who came to me and she, and she was high up in the magazine world. And I think two or three year old was having a bottle to go to sleep and throughout the night, and they had hired me to help them and they decided to tell their friends in their social group. She was like, Kim, they all came out with their dirty little secrets about sleep and that what they’re doing. And, and I thought, Oh my God, I don’t feel alone. And, and I thought, what, how sad that you’ve been feeling alone of them for all these years. And meanwhile, you’ve all been in the same place, but they were afraid that they would be judged.
Linda: Right. Cause there is a lot of shame. I remember one of the other coaches , who I was talking to, I think at the conference a couple of years ago was saying how sometimes she has a hard time getting testimonials from families because they are ashamed about the place where they were before things improved and you know, their three-year-old was taking a bottle or were sleeping in their bed and they felt deep shame about that.
Kim: Yeah. Yeah. I have found that too, with the celebrity clients that I’ve worked with, they’re like, yeah. Now, sorry, Kim. We’ll tell all our friends, but we don’t really want anyone to know.
Jessica: Right, right. Well, one last question, a little bit about you and about Kim. Is, can you tell us a little bit, you know, what you like to do in your free time or one little secret that you would like to share with, the rest of the world that no one knows yet.
Kim: Yeah, I was thinking about that. There was probably a few things, but I was thinking one is, well, first of all, I love traveling. I love dancing and I love art. In high school, I was voted class artist and I originally went to college for graphic design. And my hope is when I retire that I just want to take art classes and I want to be like my mom, who is an artist and her sister is an artist and both my daughters are artistic. And so that’s my fantasy just take art classes and paint.
Jessica: What about move to Italy and paint? Because that’s kind of one of mine.
Kim: Thank you. I was going to say, and I want to live in different parts of the world while I’m painting.
Jessica: That sounds wonderful. One day we can all start traveling again. And enjoy.
Kim: Can’t wait.
Linda: Well, thank you so much for sharing with us and sharing with our audience. We really appreciate it. I hope everybody who’s listened to this will really now have a better sense of what the GSC program is all about and really how well-trained we are. And by somebody who’s put in so much. thought into this process.
It’s not just about, Oh, well, you know, I sleep trained my kids, so now I can help you. There is a lot of thought. There’s years and years of practice, that’s really been put into all of our training. So thank you so much for
Kim: And we continue to improve and add to the training.
Jessica: Absolutely. I’m for one, I’m really excited about the training for 6 to 10 year olds.
Kim: That’s coming.
Linda: Yeah. Great. Well, thank you.
